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If there is a compromise, will all of us be audited and penalized for not paying the tax on the conceded “revenue” in past reporting years?
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<div>David E. Fennell</div>
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<blockquote type="cite">On Jan 12, 2025, at 11:43 AM, Carrie Tellefson <carrie@sound-gov.com> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Hi Dwight – normally I would completely agree with you, but my sense is we may not even get a hearing without having some sort of compromise position ironed out. I’ve been told this will be
referred to the fiscal committees rather than the policy committees and they are looking for more money these days, given the approx. $12 billion shortfall. So they are reluctant to pass bills that reduce revenue. The other issue is that if DOR doesn’t get
a signal that a compromise is possible, they will write a fiscal note that will kill the bill.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">We should know next week (I hope) which committee the bills have been referred to. If one or both goes to a policy committee, we could choose to hold off discussions until after a hearing. However,
we will then risk the likelihood of a formidable fiscal note.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">In the meantime, we could use your help understanding DOR’s comments regarding the bifurcation of ‘escrow agent services’ and their description of ‘what the bill does.’ Are they wrong? If so
we need to explain why. Or, does the bill need to be redrafted to more succinctly accomplish our goals? I don’t’ know the statutes well and their comments are confusing. We will need to give the prime sponsor answers to the DOR’s comments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Carrie<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Carrie Tellefson, JD, President<br>
Sound Government Solutions<br>
253-576-9908 (cell)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I understand that everyone has their own way of working. I’m sending this email at a time that suits my schedule, but there’s no expectation for you to read, reply or act
on it outside your regular work hours.</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="color:black">Legislativecommittee1 <legislativecommittee1-bounces@washingtonlandtitle.com> on behalf of Dwight Bickel <dwight@dwightbickel.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, January 12, 2025 at 10:46</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black">AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Maureen Pfaff <maureen@olypentitle.com>, Jp Kissling <jpkissling@fitico.com>, '1 WLTA Legislative Committee' <legislativecommittee1@washingtonlandtitle.com><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Legislativecommittee1] SB 5111 DOR Feedback<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think the DOR suggestion is a tell that know there is weakness in their position that it is acceptable to impose B&O tax on the Escrow company for the recording fee. That fee is already a tax upon sellers for homeless revenue.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I do not recommend agreement on a compromise before seeing how the legislators respond at a hearing.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:black">Dwight Bickel</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:black">dwight@dwightbickel.com</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:black">206-484-1976</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Legislativecommittee1 <legislativecommittee1-bounces@washingtonlandtitle.com>
on behalf of Maureen Pfaff <maureen@olypentitle.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 11, 2025 3:37:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jp Kissling <jpkissling@fitico.com>; '1 WLTA Legislative Committee' <legislativecommittee1@washingtonlandtitle.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Legislativecommittee1] SB 5111 DOR Feedback</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">If I'm reading this correctly, they are proposing that we include recording fees in the Retailing B&O section of the excise tax report, but they would agree to exempt the fees from the State Sales & Use Tax. I'm
unclear if we would also include them in the Local Sales Tax section(s) or not so we will want to clarify that. If this is the only way to move our bill forward, I am amenable to it. Some improvement is better than
<i>no </i>improvement and at least we'll have in writing what they expect us to be doing. I would like to think that if our state is requiring us to collect tax on these fees and they put it in writing then we won't have to deal with the CFPB telling us we
have to refund down the road if they don't agree about the taxable nature of the recording fees.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I don't understand the bifurcation of Escrow Services comments as I highly doubt there are companies that are not identifying recording fees as separate charges on the CD/HUD/Settlement Statements.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I am willing to be involved in a meeting with DOR and Senator Chapman.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"> Legislativecommittee1 <legislativecommittee1-bounces@washingtonlandtitle.com>
on behalf of Jp Kissling <jpkissling@fitico.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 11, 2025 1:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> '1 WLTA Legislative Committee' <legislativecommittee1@washingtonlandtitle.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Legislativecommittee1] FW: SB 5111 DOR Feedback</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Thought and do we have anyone willing to tackle this?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Carrie Tellefson <carrie@sound-gov.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 11, 2025 1:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Maureen Pfaff <maureen@olypentitle.com>; Jp Kissling <jpkissling@fitico.com>; Michelle Taylor <mjtaylor@firstam.com>; Jim Blair <jblair4@figtitle.com>; George Peters <execdirector@washingtonlandtitle.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Sam Miller <sam@sound-gov.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> FW: SB 5111 DOR Feedback<br>
<b>Importance:</b> High</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Hi All – Senator Chapman just texted me to let me know he is sending an email from the DOR to him. He is asking for our advice on how to respond.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">There is a lot in here that I don’t understand. I need your help wading through it and offering a solution. DOR proposes to change the bill so the focus is only on removing sales tax on the recording fees, not
B&O. Is that workable?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">I would like help from you understanding their comment about the bifurcation of escrow agent services. Do we need to fix that?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Please let me know your thoughts. I would like to get back to him this weekend.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Carrie</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Carrie Tellefson, JD, President<br>
Sound Government Solutions<br>
253-576-9908 (cell)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I understand that everyone has their own way of working. I’m sending this email at a time that suits my schedule, but there’s no expectation for you to read, reply or act on it outside your
regular work hours.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><span style="color:black">From: </span></b><span style="color:black">Chapman, Sen. Mike <</span><u><span style="color:blue"><a href="mailto:Mike.Chapman@leg.wa.gov">Mike.Chapman@leg.wa.gov</a></span></u><span style="color:black">><br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, January 11, 2025 at 12:57</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black">PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Carrie Tellefson <</span><u><span style="color:blue"><a href="mailto:carrie@sound-gov.com">carrie@sound-gov.com</a></span></u><span style="color:black">><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Fw: SB 5111 DOR Feedback</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p>Carrie, hopefully this makes sense to you and you can advise me on how I should reply:)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Thx!<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Armstrong, Kate (DOR) <<u><span style="color:blue"><a href="mailto:KateA@DOR.WA.GOV">KateA@DOR.WA.GOV</a></span></u>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 10, 2025 3:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Chapman, Sen. Mike <<u><span style="color:blue"><a href="mailto:Mike.Chapman@leg.wa.gov">Mike.Chapman@leg.wa.gov</a></span></u>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Arndt, Meagan <<u><span style="color:blue"><a href="mailto:Meagan.Arndt@leg.wa.gov">Meagan.Arndt@leg.wa.gov</a></span></u>>; Ewing, Steve (DOR) <<u><span style="color:blue"><a href="mailto:SteveE2@DOR.WA.GOV">SteveE2@DOR.WA.GOV</a></span></u>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> SB 5111 DOR Feedback</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:#FFEB9C"><span style="color:#9C6500">CAUTION:</span><span style="color:black">External email.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Hi Senator Chapman,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I hope you are doing well! I am contacting you today regarding <u><span style="color:#467886"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__url.avanan.click_v2_r01_-5F-5F-5Fhttps-3A_app.leg.wa.gov_BillSummary_-3FBillNumber-3D5111-26Year-3D2025-26Initiative-3Dfalse-5F-5F-5F.YXAzOmZpZGVsaXR5dGl0bGVjbzphOm86NTJjOWZmOGMzNjU1YTg3NDFjYWQ1YzQ2N2Q4MmE4YTk6NzphZTgxOjY4MWZiM2VlYjhhNGVhYjhlNDljYjcyZDg5NjE5OTUyNDg3MzIzMTU0MjhlNDU4NDk5Zjc1MmZmYmI3N2M3ZGQ6aDpUOkY&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=p9vJsp0aoiE7RjUE9pW-_Qg_OI-6qMHlnZdfSllgAtM&m=_CgsaCQfwmGve-5TYuZnMtjs75roVCWNhGvNkaic5YNPqCXoKerFdMYe0VM4SdtF&s=KlXY4jM1oENvlRRpj_kZ-zWXVGIgmglN641inglSc3I&e=" title="Protected by Avanan: https://app.leg.wa.gov/BillSummary/?BillNumber=5111&Year=2025&Initiative=false"><span style="color:#467886">SB
5111</span></a></span></u> – <i>Concerning the excise tax treatment of amounts received by title and escrow businesses from clients for remittance to a county filing office for the purpose of recording documents.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b> </b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b>What this proposal does</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>This proposal swaps escrow services with escrow agent services that do not include amounts remitted to a county filing office for the purpose of recording documents in the list of business activities whose charges for their services are considered sales
at retail. This proposal also exempts document and recording fees filed with the county filing office by escrow agent services from B&O tax.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b> </b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b>Possible unintended consequences</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>We understand this proposal to result in a bifurcation of escrow agent service taxation.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">One group will be businesses that provide escrow agent services which do not include separately stated document and recording fees as part of their charges.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo1">The escrow agent services will be subject to retailing B&O and must charge retail sales tax on their services.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">The other group will be all other businesses that provide escrow agent services including ones that separately state document and recording fees as part of their escrow agent service charges.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l1 level2 lfo1">The escrow agent services will be subject to service and other B&O tax.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
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<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>This is our understanding because the section being amended in this proposal defines the businesses engaging in sales at retail and not the charges that are subject to retailing B&O tax.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">Section 2(3) “The term "sale at retail" or "retail sale" includes the sale of or charge made for personal, business, or professional services …
<b><i>received by persons engaging in the following business activities</i></b>:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">…<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="margin-left:.5in">“(g) Escrow agent services … that do not include amounts remitted to a county filing office for the purpose of recording documents, if separately identified on a settlement statement, HUD-1, or closing disclosure”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>(emphasis added). Thus, any charge for services by a business engaged in the escrow agent services as defined in Section 2(3)(g) would be subject to retailing B&O tax.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>We assume that creating two different B&O tax treatments on similar transactions is likely not the intent. Instead, we assume the intent is to exempt the document and recording fees collected and remitted to the county filing office by escrow agent as a
service to their customer from B&O tax and retail sales and use tax.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b>Policy concern</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The B&O tax is, by design, broadly applied to gross income at a low rate. A feature of the B&O tax is that it does not allow deductions for a cost of doing business. Instead, the B&O tax is pyramiding in nature, meaning the gross income is taxable at each
stage of a process regardless of whether tax was due at an earlier stage. Retail sales and use tax applies when a sale is made to an end-consumer who does not intend to resell the good/services purchased.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Government fees-for-service are generally taxable when they are included in a larger retail transaction to a customer/client such as the sale of escrow services. In the case of abstract, title insurance, or escrow services, the customer/client is purchasing
a whole host of services which includes document recording. Document and recording fees are incidental to the larger retail sale of services and merely a cost of doing business for the industry.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>As a note, the department generally has no concerns with the creation of a retail sales and use tax exemption as these do not undermine the fundamental feature of a B&O tax that it does not allow deductions for the cost of doing business.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><i> </i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b>Suggested alternative approach</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>If amenable to limiting this proposal to the retail sales and use tax due on the document and recording fees paid the escrow services, we recommend simply exempting amounts that are remitted to a county filing office from retail sales tax and use tax under
RCW 82.04 and 82.12 and removing any provision making changes to the B&O tax under chapter 82.04 RCW.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>This approach has two key advantages:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">It preserves the lower B&O retailing tax rate for all taxable escrow agent services.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2">It avoids creating a carve-out from the definition of a “retail sale” for the cost of doing business for a specific industry, which the department has consistently viewed with caution.<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<p style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>If this approach does not meet your needs, it would be helpful to confirm the intent of your proposal with respect to the B&O tax treatment escrow agent services. This will help ensure any fiscal note we produce accurately estimate the impact of the proposed
tax changes.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b> </b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b>Intent section of the proposal</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The department has consistently taken the position that these document and recording fees are taxable under current law and the department’s position has not changed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Therefore, we take issue with the mischaracterization in the intent section of the proposed legislation that the department has had a change of position that would trigger a rulemaking process. We also have concerns that this proposal purports to “clarify”
rather than change the tax treatment of document and recording fees. Thus, we respectfully request that the intent section be removed from the bill.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I hope you find this helpful. We are happy to answer any questions you may have or review any future drafts.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Have a great weekend!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><b><span style="color:#1F497D">Kate Armstrong</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Narrow",sans-serif;color:#353535">Assistant Legislative Liaison | Executive Division</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Narrow",sans-serif;color:#353535">Washington State Department of Revenue</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Narrow",sans-serif;color:#353535">6400 Linderson Way SW, Tumwater, WA 98501</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Narrow",sans-serif;color:#353535">o: (360) 534-1537</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Narrow",sans-serif;color:#353535">c: (360) 584-3742</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Narrow",sans-serif;color:#467886"><a href="mailto:KateA@dor.wa.gov"><span style="color:#467886">KateA@dor.wa.gov</span></a></span></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Narrow",sans-serif;color:#353535"> |
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<p><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Aptos Narrow",sans-serif;color:#353535">New:
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<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
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